Speaking English with Confidence

PUBLIC_FLAG_#{@journal.pf_int} RSS feed of M-K-G's latest journal entries Dec 15th 2011 12:12 correction-please
I've translated a passage written by some Japanese writer.
Would you mind correcting the translation?


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When we negotiate or discuss with someone in English, if the person is its native speaker, just this fact can make us nervous.
Even when the person gives an insignificant opinion, sometimes we even get ashamed of our inability to object to it well enough.
However, when the person is not a native speaker of English, surprisingly we can speak English with confidence, maybe because we can be relieved that the person is not good at English as well.
Dec 15th 2011 12:27 RyanOliveVirus

  • When we negotiate or discuss someone in English, if the person is its native speaker, just this fact can make us nervous.
  • When we negotiate or talk with someone in English, if the person is its native speaker just this fact alone can make us nervous.

 
Dec 15th 2011 13:58 tony

  • I've translated a passage written by some Japanese writer.
  • I've translated a passage written by a Japanese writer.

 

  • When we negotiate or discuss with someone in English, if the person is its native speaker, just this fact can make us nervous.
  • When we negotiate or discuss something with someone in English, if the person is a native speaker, just this fact can make us nervous. ["Discuss" always needs a direct object. "A native speaker" is short for "a native speaker of English." You wrote "its native speaker" thinking it was short for "English's native speaker", presumably, but this is not a natural use of a possessive form of a noun, so "its" sounds out of place even though it makes sense logically.]

 

  • Even when the person gives an insignificant opinion, sometimes we even get ashamed of our inability to object to it well enough.
  • Even when the person gives/states an insignificant/unimportant opinion, sometimes we even get ashamed of our inability to object to it well enough. [Alternative: We sometimes get ashamed of being unable to express our disagreement well enough, even if/when the statement that gave rise to the disagreement is not important.]

 

  • However, when the person is not a native speaker of English, surprisingly we can speak English with confidence, maybe because we can be relieved that the person is not good at English as well.
  • However, when the person is not a native speaker of English, surprisingly we can speak English with confidence, maybe because we can be relieved that he (or she) is also not good at English. [Alternative: "... is not good at English, either."]

 
I think there is another reason. Two Japanese speakers will tend to use English in similar ways, so each will understand easily what the other is trying to say, even though a native English speaker might feel that they had used English "incorrectly." This is also true to some extent with a Japanese speaker of English and a Korean or Chinese speaker, for example, since there are some common features in how all of them use English differently than native speakers of English.
Dec 15th 2011 17:50 M-K-G
I think so, too.
And Japanese people seem to be too afraid of making mistakes in speaking English.

Excuse me, could I ask you why you corrected "as well" in the last sentence?
Dec 15th 2011 21:02 tony
"As well" sounds awkward to me with a negative verb. I can't think of any "rule" regarding this.
Dec 15th 2011 21:11 tony
Here's a page I found about the issue: http://www.grammar-quizzes.com/too-either.html
I will try to find something better.
Dec 15th 2011 21:28 tony
The page that links to, http://www.grammar-quizzes.com/adv_focus.html , is also relevant. All of this is new to me; as a native speaker, I just make the indicated choices instinctively.
Dec 16th 2011 12:52 M-K-G
Ah-huh, I think I understand!
Maybe it can be explained in terms of these two facts, first "as well" is often placed at or near the last part of a sentence, and then "as well" isn't allowed to put after "not", as well as "too / also", in order to convey the same meaning as "neither".

Thank you very much for the helpful links!!
Dec 18th 2011 12:51 hiralingual
tony-san, can I ask a question about the word "ashamed?"

I'd like to know whether it is natural to say this:

We are sometimes ashamed of ourselves for being unable to express our disagreement well enough ...

Does "ashamed of ourselves" sound like the negative feeling is exaggerated or dramatized?
Dec 18th 2011 13:16 tony
It's hard to say, really. A milder statement would be "We are sometimes uncomfortable with not being able to express our disagreement better." (or: "... with our inability to express disagreement more clearly.") To be ashamed of oneself is to feel that one has failed to live up to one's expectations of oneself.
Dec 18th 2011 20:13 hiralingual
Aha aha, interesting. Words and phrases for human feeling are hard to grasp for non-native speakers.

One last question: can you say "we are sometimes sorry ..." in this context?

Dec 18th 2011 20:32 tony
One would have to be careful about what follows it, because "sorry" has the two distinct meanings "regretful" and "apologetic"; an apology is always directed towards another person, whereas regret does not have to be.

We are sometimes sorry that it is hard for us to express our disagreement clearly.

We sometimes regret having difficulty expressing our disagreement clearly.

I think I prefer the "regret" version.

About "ashamed"-- "shame" very often has to do with moral or ethical transgressions, but it can also be disappointment about not doing something as well as one would like to be able to. I think the main reason for avoiding it in this particular situation is that the listener may incorrectly infer that some moral or ethical violation has occurred.
Dec 18th 2011 20:39 hiralingual
>but it can also be disappointment about not doing something as well as one would like to be able to.

Can it? I didn't know that! What a shame! Oh, I said "shame" ...

Anyway, thank you very much ^^
Dec 18th 2011 20:54 tony
Take a look at the first line of the following movie review:
http://www.okmagazine.com/reviews/dvds/philmguys-dvd-review-blue-valentine-no-strings-attached
The author means that he is disappointed in himself for not having done a more thorough job in preparing his "top 10" list. This is a failure to live up to his standards of effectiveness, rather than a moral or ethical failure.
(This was the first result of a web search for the phrase "I'm ashamed of myself for not".)
Dec 19th 2011 19:46 M-K-G
Wow, what a enjoyable and useful discussion during my absence in lang-8 ...

Thank you so much you two =)

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