Passive Voice in English and Japanese
Oct 30th 2010 03:15
Passive
Active
Voice
受動態
能動態
English
Japanese
Roomy
Throughout my early articles I wrote in English several months ago on Lang-8, I tended to use passive voice a little too often. I didn't wake up to the fact until Kathryn, a Lang-8 friend of mine, pointed out this fact. She told me: "English is more of a direct language, so the passive voice isn't used as often unless we want to explicitly express the importance of the event over the subjects." She added that the active voice could add strength to your (i.e., generic "your") statements.
How Do We Feel about Passive Voice in English?
Recently, I chanced to look in some English texts of my Japanese friend (not on Lang-8) and noticed that she used passive voice LAUGHABLY often! This is because English is a foreign language for Japanese people, but not that passive voice is more common in the Japanese language. Rather. Japanese is one of languages that tend to avoid passive constructions, so it would appear to us that English makes much use of passive voice as compared to Japanese.
The following examples show English passive sentences where we usually use active voice in Japanese:
1. I was surprised by his voice. = 私は彼の声に驚いた。
2. He is interested in science. = 彼は科学に興味があります。
3. I'm excited at that news! = そのニュースにわくわく / 興奮してるの！
4. She was born in Japan. = 彼女は日本で生まれた。
5. This photo was taken in the park. = この写真は公園で撮ったものです。("この写真は公園で撮りました" could imply that the photo was taken by the speakers.)
We can probably regard examples 1-3 as active sentences if we define such words as "surprised," "interested," and "excited" as predicate adjectives. Even so, these give us the impression that English has the tendency to depend on passive constructions.[1]
Example 5 is somewhat different from the other four. There, the passive voice is used to make the agent of the verb obscure. Even in such a case, informal Japanese has a strong tendency to avoid passive voice; as in, "そのワンピには素敵な花の刺繍がしてある (= 'The dress is embroidered gorgeously with flowers.')"[2]
Passive Voice in Japanese
I noticed that some Japanese language learners tend to use actives even where passives are necessary:
・8月3日に花火大会を行います。 (This is correct if you are an official for the firework event.)
・8月3日に花火大会が行われます。 (You have to use passive voice like this if you are NOT an official for the event.)
According to some Japanese philologists, the modern usages of passive voice in Japanese has been strongly influenced by those in Western languages. In early Japanese, passive constructions were mainly used to express something "undesirous" such as 盗まれる ("stolen") and 殺される ("killed") being carried out. In such cases, intransitive verbs were (and are still) used even in passive constructions:
・君にそこへ行かれては困る。(= "I'll be at a loss if you go there." The verb 行く "to go" is intransitive.)
・子供に泣かれてうるさいの。(= "I'm annoyed by the cry of my baby." The verb 泣く "to cry" is intransitive.)
These seemingly passive constructions do not actually have passive meanings; from the standpoint of the subjects, they paraphrase the situations that the subjects undergo. One of so-called respectful forms of verbs that has the passive-like ending -(r)areru (e.g. 読まれる, a respectful form of 読む "to read") might, in my view, originate from this kind of usage.
Ancient Japanese verbs had only active and middle voices (cf. 見る and 聞く vs. 見える and 聞こえる. The latter verbs have the reflexive senses of the former). Later, passive constructions developed--especially under the influence of foreign languages, and modern formal Japanese makes much use of passives. However, active expressions are still dominant in today's colloquial Japanese.
My Problem
I think there are similar and different attitudes toward the passive voice between Japanese and English. To make my writing clear, I'll try to use active voice as much as possible in English sentences. However, I sometimes get stuck with whether to use active or passive voice. For example, it may be OK to say, "They say Roomy's birthday is November 1st" in spoken style, but it would be awkward to use "they say" instead of "it is said" in academic articles. The problem is how to lend my writing a sense of objectivity while avoiding the passive voice.
ﾟ･*:.｡. .｡.:･
☆。・:*゜。・:*゜
Note:
1. Cf. French "Je m'interesse à la science" and German "Ich interessiere mich für Wissenschaft," both meaning "I am interested in science," literally "I interest myself in science."
2. Formal written Japanese would use passive voice in this instance: そのワンピースには素敵な花の刺繍が施されている。
How Do We Feel about Passive Voice in English?
Recently, I chanced to look in some English texts of my Japanese friend (not on Lang-8) and noticed that she used passive voice LAUGHABLY often! This is because English is a foreign language for Japanese people, but not that passive voice is more common in the Japanese language. Rather. Japanese is one of languages that tend to avoid passive constructions, so it would appear to us that English makes much use of passive voice as compared to Japanese.
The following examples show English passive sentences where we usually use active voice in Japanese:
1. I was surprised by his voice. = 私は彼の声に驚いた。
2. He is interested in science. = 彼は科学に興味があります。
3. I'm excited at that news! = そのニュースにわくわく / 興奮してるの！
4. She was born in Japan. = 彼女は日本で生まれた。
5. This photo was taken in the park. = この写真は公園で撮ったものです。("この写真は公園で撮りました" could imply that the photo was taken by the speakers.)
We can probably regard examples 1-3 as active sentences if we define such words as "surprised," "interested," and "excited" as predicate adjectives. Even so, these give us the impression that English has the tendency to depend on passive constructions.[1]
Example 5 is somewhat different from the other four. There, the passive voice is used to make the agent of the verb obscure. Even in such a case, informal Japanese has a strong tendency to avoid passive voice; as in, "そのワンピには素敵な花の刺繍がしてある (= 'The dress is embroidered gorgeously with flowers.')"[2]
Passive Voice in Japanese
I noticed that some Japanese language learners tend to use actives even where passives are necessary:
・8月3日に花火大会を行います。 (This is correct if you are an official for the firework event.)
・8月3日に花火大会が行われます。 (You have to use passive voice like this if you are NOT an official for the event.)
According to some Japanese philologists, the modern usages of passive voice in Japanese has been strongly influenced by those in Western languages. In early Japanese, passive constructions were mainly used to express something "undesirous" such as 盗まれる ("stolen") and 殺される ("killed") being carried out. In such cases, intransitive verbs were (and are still) used even in passive constructions:
・君にそこへ行かれては困る。(= "I'll be at a loss if you go there." The verb 行く "to go" is intransitive.)
・子供に泣かれてうるさいの。(= "I'm annoyed by the cry of my baby." The verb 泣く "to cry" is intransitive.)
These seemingly passive constructions do not actually have passive meanings; from the standpoint of the subjects, they paraphrase the situations that the subjects undergo. One of so-called respectful forms of verbs that has the passive-like ending -(r)areru (e.g. 読まれる, a respectful form of 読む "to read") might, in my view, originate from this kind of usage.
Ancient Japanese verbs had only active and middle voices (cf. 見る and 聞く vs. 見える and 聞こえる. The latter verbs have the reflexive senses of the former). Later, passive constructions developed--especially under the influence of foreign languages, and modern formal Japanese makes much use of passives. However, active expressions are still dominant in today's colloquial Japanese.
My Problem
I think there are similar and different attitudes toward the passive voice between Japanese and English. To make my writing clear, I'll try to use active voice as much as possible in English sentences. However, I sometimes get stuck with whether to use active or passive voice. For example, it may be OK to say, "They say Roomy's birthday is November 1st" in spoken style, but it would be awkward to use "they say" instead of "it is said" in academic articles. The problem is how to lend my writing a sense of objectivity while avoiding the passive voice.
ﾟ･*:.｡. .｡.:･
☆。・:*゜。・:*゜
Note:
1. Cf. French "Je m'interesse à la science" and German "Ich interessiere mich für Wissenschaft," both meaning "I am interested in science," literally "I interest myself in science."
2. Formal written Japanese would use passive voice in this instance: そのワンピースには素敵な花の刺繍が施されている。
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French "Je m'intéresse à la science" xD
Thank you indeed for having written it *-*
e., generic "your") statements. In this case you could say "one's" statements. It is kind of a formal way of saying "your" in instances like this. For example; "Can you do something like that?" is equal to "Can one do something like that?" if you are mentioning is it possible?
One of the so-called respectful forms of verbs that has the passive-like ending -(r)areru (e.
Touché! How could I have been so careless? xD
It's a good thing you've corrected my French though. Merci beaucoup! <3
Welcome to my journal!
Thank you for the compliment. I appreciate it. Obrigada!!! :)
Several months ago, in my earlier entries on Lang-8 which I wrote in English, I tended to use passive voice a little too often.
I didn't wake up to that fact until Kathryn, a friend of mine from Lang-8, pointed it out.
Recently, I happened to look at some examples of English of my Japanese friend (not on Lang-8) and noticed that she used passive voice way too often! ["Laughably" sounds mean. -_-;]
Japanese is a language that tends to avoid passive construction, so it would appear to us that English makes more use of passive voice as compared to Japanese.
The following examples show passive English sentences where we usually use active voice in Japanese:
Even so, these give us the impression that English has the tendency to depend on passive construction.
I noticed that some Japanese language learners tend to use active voice even when passive voice is necessary:
(This is correct if you are an official for the fireworks event.)
According to some Japanese philologists, the modern usage of passive voice in Japanese have been strongly influenced by those in Western languages.
In old Japanese, passive constructions were mainly used to express something "undesirable" such as 盗まれる ("stolen") and 殺される ("killed") being carried out.
One of the so-called respectful forms of verbs that has the passive-like ending -(r)areru (e.
However, I sometimes get stuck with whether to use an active or passive voice.
Many students in the US, when they begin to learn how to write essays, tend to over-use passive voice. We are constantly told in high school and in college to use active voice as much as possible to make our essays more argumentative instead of descriptive.
I've noticed that many English blogs written by Japanese people on Lang-8 tend to be descriptive and essay-like, which may be why passive voice is initially favored. However, when people write more personally, more active voice is being used.
Thank you for the corrections!
Actually, I wondered if I should use "one" instead of "you" at that place, but I didn't because I thought generic one is less common than generic you.
Most Japanese learners of English don't know that they should avoid too much use of passive voice, so they overuse the passive voice. I think you didn't use too much passive voice in Japanese. Keep going like that! :)
Thank you for the corrections! Sorry for making your head spin!! ^_^
Oh, I made a lot of mistakes again! I still don't know why "passive English sentences" is better than "English passive sentences."
Japanese people learning English have no idea that they should replace passive sentences with active sentence in order to tighten their sentences. I think it's because they tend to over-use passive voice. Hopefully they read this post and come to know the importance of active voice.
You asked why the phrase "passive English sentences" is better. The reason is that there is a specific order that we put the adjectives in. You can see a table here:
http://www.grammar-quizzes.com/adj_order.html
If you have more questions, then research "adjective word order." :) I'm sorry I cannot provide a nice linguistic textbook source, but hopefully this site will answer your question.
Wooow, that's very useful! I bookmarked this website.
So "passive" is an "evaluation" adjective and comes before "English" which is an "origin" adjective, right?
It makes sense to me now. Thank you very much!
What a great site for English learners!! If only there was one for Japanese!! lol
Thank you, chunicone! I'm so relieved to hear that. :)
Oh, I see. However, at least for me, it's important now because I'd like to improve my writing skill in English.
Btw, I made a mistake above. "I think it's because they tend to over-use passive voice" was wrong. I tried to say, "I think that's why they tend to over-use passive voice.'
I tried to read the whole post and to understand about passive and active voice in Japanese, but I just can't. I think I really need to brush up my Japanese again. It's been such a long time since I've picked up my Japanese language textbooks and study. >"<
Long time no see! How have you been?
Haha, pretty much every learner of Japanese says like that. The use of active and passive voices in Japanese seems easy to learn, but it's very tricky. Sometimes it's similar to that in English but other times quite different. :P
助かりました。ありがとうー
こんにちは～
お役に立ちました？喜んでいただけて嬉しいで～す♪
As you pointed out, there's a tendency to make heavy use of passive voice in formal Japanese. I admit that English language beginners are susceptible to their mother tongue when they speak or write. Consequently it follows that they sometimes misuse active and passive voice in their English writings. On the other hand, native English speakers often use passive voice to intentionally obscure the idea of who is taking the action. Such tendencies are especially common in political statements and business documents.
There's much difference between formal and informal speech in Japanese. 思われる、考えられる、言われる, etc are typical of formal Japanese. They have the effect of sounding authentic and plausible, while 私は～と思う sounds a bit subjective as if it is the speaker's personal opinion. Anyway, we never say 思われる among friends unless jokingly. :)
I haven't see you for a while. Are you doing well? I've been thinking what to write here for a month. (Just kidding, lol.) Hmm... do you think my articles are that hard to understand? I thought I should write the Japanese translation of my article, but I couldn't because this post ended up too long to do so.
Hopefully this could be of some help to you. ☆
I thought Japanese people try to make passive sentences, because it is more polite. However, I don´t see many Japanese sentences on Japanese native speakers, so I was confused about that ^^
Thanks for the explanation!!!
The differences between English and Japanese are really big, isn´t it?
Your English is incredible good.
Oh, you seem like a philosopher of posts!xD
No, I don't^^ To tell you the truth, I have a small vocabulalry:)
Well, shall I do it?)) If I'll do it, it might become a post like a man writing)) If it's alright, would you continue to enlighten us?♪
Change the subject, your new photo in your profile is fantastic!))清楚系なんですね＾＾
Actually, I had no idea that the difference between active and passive voice has an important implications before. As I wrote above, there are similar and different attitudes toward the passive voice between Japanese and English. Passive voice is very useful to leave out the person or thing doing the action. This is pretty much the same in both the languages.
In addition to this, since the passive-like ending is often used in Japanese polite speech, its possible that passive expressions gained the favor of Japanese people. This feature is peculiar to the Japanese language and less common in other languages.
Oh, and thank you for the compliment! :)
Hmm... I wonder if you meant to say you would write your posts in a masculine way. Al right, I'm curious, please do! xD
Yeah, I like "seiso-kei" style♪ I don't know what to call it in English, though. ;)
え、そうですか？コメントが少ないのはそのせいかな～＞＜
ラングエイトにおいて、数ヶ月前、つまり初期に私が英語で書いた記事の大体を通してみると、私は受動態を多少使いすぎていた嫌いがある。私は不覚にもラングエイトの友達キャサリンにそれを指摘されるまで気づかなかったのである。彼女が私に言ったのは、英語はより直接的な言葉であるから、受動態はあまり使われない、もし我々がその主題を通して出来事の重要性を「明白に」表現すれば別であるが、ということである。彼女はさらに、能動態は発言ないし記述を強め得る（機能を持つ）と言うのである。
How Do We Feel about Passive Voice in English?
では、
我々が英語で受動態についてどう考えているか、または、どう感じているか、それが問題であると考える。
Recently, I chanced to look in some English texts of my Japanese friend (not on Lang-8) and noticed that she used passive voice LAUGHABLY often! This is because English is a foreign language for Japanese people, but not that passive voice is more common in the Japanese language. Rather. Japanese is one of languages that tend to avoid passive constructions, so it would appear to us that English makes much use of passive voice as compared to Japanese.
近頃、私は友達の英文を目にする機会があったのであるが、そこでは受動態が多少の失笑すら買うであろう量で利用されていたのである。しかしながらここで重要なことは、これは英語が日本の人々にとって「いかに英語が外国語であるか」ということを述べているのであって、日本国民の言語活動において受動態がますますよく使われ出していることを表しているのではないことに注意しなければならないということであると考える。それどころか、日本語はその「逆の」特性を持った言語である。それは、「受動構造を避ける傾向を持つ」ということである。具体的かつ直裁的に記述すれば、英語現象と比較したとき、それほどに日本語は受動態を大量に使用していないということである。
The following examples show English passive sentences where we usually use active voice in Japanese:
以下の実例は英文における受動性を提出しているが、それは我々が日本語において通常「能動態」として使用しているものである。
1. I was surprised by his voice. = 私は彼の声に驚いた。
2. He is interested in science. = 彼は科学に興味があります。
3. I'm excited at that news! = そのニュースにわくわく / 興奮してるの！
4. She was born in Japan. = 彼女は日本で生まれた。
5. This photo was taken in the park. = この写真は公園で撮ったものです。("この写真は公園で撮りました" could imply that the photo was taken by the speakers.)
We can probably regard examples 1-3 as active sentences if we define such words as "surprised," "interested," and "excited" as predicate adjectives. Even so, these give us the impression that English has the tendency to depend on passive constructions.[1]
これらの英文において、我々は１～３の実例を「能動文」とも見なし得る。なぜなら、もし我々がその言葉の定義を叙述形容詞、すなわち、「驚いた」、「興味を持っ」、「興奮した」とするのであれば、それは物事（ここでは主語「私」）の特徴を一時的に説明するものであると言う事ができるからである。しかしたとえそうであっても、これらの日常的に多用されるであろう英文は我々に、英語が受動構造に依存しやすい傾向を持つ言語現象であるという印象を与えるということも言うことができるのである。
Example 5 is somewhat different from the other four. There, the passive voice is used to make the agent of the verb obscure. Even in such a case, informal Japanese has a strong tendency to avoid passive voice; as in, "そのワンピには素敵な花の刺繍がしてある (= 'The dress is embroidered gorgeously with flowers.')"[2]
実例５においては、他の４つのものとは多少異なる。なぜなら、その受動態は一定の曖昧性を持った動詞の動作主を設けるために用いら
れているからである。しかしそのような場合においてさえ、くだけた文体の日本語は受動態を避けるという強い傾向を持っているのである。それはまさに、「そのワンピには素敵な花の刺繍がしてある（The dress is embroidered gorgeously with flowers.）。」という文に現われていると見ることができるのである。
Passive Voice in Japanese
日本語における受動態
I noticed that some Japanese language learners tend to use actives even where passives are necessary:
発見されたことがある。それは、ある日本語学習者は受動態の必要な所でさえも、能動態を使う傾向があるということである。
・8月3日に花火大会を行います。 (This is correct if you are an official for the firework event.)
・8月3日に花火大会が行われます。 (You have to use passive voice like this if you are NOT an official for the event.)
（これは正しい。花火大会に関する公務員であるときに限り。）
（つまり、一般的には、このように受動態を使わなければならない。）
According to some Japanese philologists, the modern usages of passive voice in Japanese has been strongly influenced by those in Western languages. In early Japanese, passive constructions were mainly used to express something "undesirous" such as 盗まれる ("stolen") and 殺される ("killed") being carried out. In such cases, intransitive verbs were (and are still) used even in passive constructions:
一部の日本語の言語学者によれば、日本語における受動態の現代語法は、西洋の言語群に強く影響され続けている。その以前において、受動態は主に、「盗まれる」とか「殺される」といったことが実行される、つまり「やられる」などのいわゆる「願わない」物事を表現するために用いられていたのである。そのような場合においては、自動詞が以前として受動構造で表現されているのである。以下がそれである。
・君にそこへ行かれては困る。(= "I'll be at a loss if you go there." The verb 行く "to go" is intransitive.)
・子供に泣かれてうるさいの。(= "I'm annoyed by the cry of my baby." The verb 泣く "to cry" is intransitive.)
（「行く」は自動詞である。）
（「泣く」は自動詞である。）
These seemingly passive constructions do not actually have passive meanings; from the standpoint of the subjects, they paraphrase the situations that the subjects undergo. One of so-called respectful forms of verbs that has the passive-like ending -(r)areru (e.g. 読まれる, a respectful form of 読む "to read") might, in my view, originate from this kind of usage.
これらの外見的受動構造は実質的には受動的意味を持っていない。その主題的観点から、またはその主語的見地から、それらはある状況に言い換えることができる。つまり、「耐え忍ぶ」などのある行為によって影響を「受ける」という主観的状況である。いわゆる動詞の敬語表現の一つは、それは受動的な表現の文末「～（ら）あれる（例、「読まれる」は「読む」の敬語）のことであるが、あくまで私の見解として、この種の用法に由来するとも言えるのである。
Ancient Japanese verbs had only active and middle voices (cf. 見る and 聞く vs. 見える and 聞こえる. The latter verbs have the reflexive senses of the former). Later, passive constructions developed--especially under the influence of foreign languages, and modern formal Japanese makes much use of passives. However, active expressions are still dominant in today's colloquial Japanese.
古代日本語の動詞は、能動態と中間態をのみを持っていた。中間態とは、「見える」「聞こえる」などであり、その動詞の能動態における再帰的意味を持つものである。その後、特に外国語の影響により受動構造が開発され、ひいては現代における公式の場で使われる正式な日本語が大量の受動態を開発しているのである。しかしながらここで忘れてはならないことは、能動表現群は現在もなお今日の口語的な日本語を席巻しているという事実である。
My Problem
私の課題
I think there are similar and different attitudes toward the passive voice between Japanese and English. To make my writing clear, I'll try to use active voice as much as possible in English sentences. However, I sometimes get stuck with whether to use active or passive voice. For example, it may be OK to say, "They say Roomy's birthday is November 1st" in spoken style, but it would be awkward to use "they say" instead of "it is said" in academic articles. The problem is how to lend my writing a sense of objectivity while avoiding the passive voice.
英語と日本語の間には、あるまとまった類似性を帯びながらも、多種多様な態度があると言える。まずもって、英語を明確に書くためには、可能な限りで能動態を使うことを心得なければならない。しかしながら、時に、能動か受動かについて私は立ち往生してしまうときがある。なぜなら、たとえば、「ルミは１１月１日生まれだと言っている。」ということは、口語の中では許されるだろうが、学術論文においては、「言われている」の代わりに「言っている」を使うことは不釣合いだと言う事が言えるからである。つまり、私の課題とは、受動態を避けながらも、客観性の高い文をどのように記述し、自らの文章にどのように適合させることが最善であるかということである。なぜなら、私は、文章において絶対的に混入せざるを得ないともいえるいわゆる恣意性を可能な限り排除し、最大限の客観的事実ないし客観性の高い意見を記述することが、私自身ひいては読者にとって最も有益・公平・弁証性が認められることとなるであろうと考えるからである。
以上
Your post is already like an university's academic article!:)
I tried to replace a man writing as an academic article but, it was already made by you!xD
Since there seems a variety of fasions, it is difficult to translate into English, isn't it?^^ But, if would do it, it would be said "Bon Mon" as "Bon ton and modest." The word was made by Mr.R. His old name is Miyokichi! xD
Hi, Rumi! How are you?
Today, I have 1 question about "Passive Voice" because when I studied Japanese, my teacher said that 受け身 in Japanese used for 悪い事.
But how's about this sentence;
今朝、僕は先生に褒められた。
(It's the good thing, right??)
So, I can use this sentence instead or not;
今朝、僕は先生に褒めてもらった。
Which one is correct?? (Both meaning and tense)
How amazing you are! I'm seeing you in a new light!!
Your translations are excellent--though there are a few points I think should be corrected in them. Thank you for the effort. I really appreciate it. ^_^
สวัสดีค่ะ สบายดีค่ะ
Hi, Juk-san! Pretty good!
That's a good point.
Traditionally, passive voice was mainly used to express something "undesirable" being carried out. I'm sure your teacher told you about that.
Japanese has been, however, influenced by foreign languages, and the passive voice has come to use in a positive way as well. So it is correct to say, 今朝、僕は先生に褒められた。There is no doubt about it.
今朝、僕は先生に褒めてもらった。is also correct.
You can use them with confidence. ^_^
This food is called Salad ---> When I write this sentence in passive voice, it's corrected to "~te iru" form. I'm confused when to use the passive voice and when to use "~te iru" in this case.
Recently, I chanced to looked in at some English texts examples of my Japanese friend (not on Lang-8) and noticed that she used passive voice LAUGHABLY too often!
To make my writing more clear, I'll try to use active voice as much as possible in English sentences.
As to passive voice, there are different attitudes between the formal speech and informal speech in Japanese. In the formal speech, it goes like this: この食べ物は、サラダと呼ばれる / 呼ばれている, the latter representing the continuous aspect of the former.
In the informal speech, however, there's a tendency to avoid the passive voice. So we would say, この食べ物は、サラダと呼んでいる。/ この食べ物は、サラダと言う。
Good luck! :)
For example, by the sentence "How Do We Feel about Passive Voice in English?" I meant to say, 「私たちは英語の受動態をどう感じているか / 私たちは英語の受動態にどういう感じを抱いているか」.
The part you translated as 「日本語における受動態」was correct.
For the most part, your translation was pretty good. :)
Long time no see! Thank you for the corrections!
Certainly. I think I have to practice using active voice through writing English articles. :)
I'm relieved to hear it☆彡
How kind of you to care about my journal, Miyokichi-san. <3
私は、あなたを見せて幸せです。：）
と、あなたのコメントに私のジャ－なるありがとうございます。
あなたのジャーなるは本当に面白です。
でも、あなたの英語と日本語は難しいです。私はわかりません。。。
明日、私は、あなたのジャーなるまた読みます。
じゃあまた～
It's been a while since you last left comment on my journal.
I'm glad you're back here!
You're always welcome.
Do you think my English difficult? Well, it's because my skill is still low.
Wish me luck!!!
いいえ、コメントのことではないよ。
Passive Voice in English and Japanese is dificult for me。
ということだ＾-＾
僕も迷ってる
Oh, really? I wonder how to express "My handbag was stolen" in Chinese.
我的手提包被偷了 or 有人偷了我的手提包?
なるほど～そうだったんですね。
英語でも日本語でも、受動態は得意だよ～♪っていう人はいないでしょうね。
おもしろーい。ここでいう、my writingとはアカデミックのそれ？それとも普段使いの文章のことかな？
私は、責任を持って主観的判断、独断をしないところには、万人にとっての一定の客観性も生まれ得ないと思っています。（完璧な客観性は存在しないとも言えるかも・・・）。つまり、文法上受け身の形を取ろうが、能動態を取ろうが、述べていることの深さによってその一定の客観性は担保されうるのだと思います。
逆に英語圏では、主語を曖昧にしてしまうような文章を避けるためにも、能動文の大切さが教えられているようです。
「文法上受け身の形を取ろうが、能動態を取ろうが、述べていることの深さによってその一定の客観性は担保されうる」。
さすが、Jubay さん！けだし卓見ですね☆
日本語は主語を省略することが多いので、そのニュアンスで書こうとすると、受動態になってしまいますね。私の場合は、前の文とのつながりで、代名詞をなるべく使うように意識すると、ちょっとはましになる気もします。代名詞で表現しきれない時は主語を考えます＾＿＾
In my earlier articles which I wrote in English on Lang-8 several months ago, Throughout my early articles I wrote in English several months ago on Lang-8, I tended to use passive voice a little too often. (Another suggestion^^ or more simply: In my earlier articles on Lang-8 which I wrote several months ago...)
Recently, I chanced happened to look at some English texts entries of (one of) my Japanese friend(s) (not on Lang-8) wrote and noticed that she used passive voice LAUGHABLY too often! (I agree that 'laughably' sounds mean here ^^; )
However, I sometimes get stuck with whether to use active or passive voice. (This is fine. You don't need 'an')
The use of passive/active is really hard for even native speakers. I would say in colloquial language, active/passive is used incorrectly all the time. Haha! So you'd be understood perfectly fine in spoken language regardless. To me, the passive voice sounds a lot more formal than the active voice. Like, I would expect passive to be written in an academic paper... but people still use passive in every day language, even though it feels too formal... I definitely struggle with the use of passive/active in Japanese. ^^;; I guess it's because of the difference in usage. It's one of those things I just hope to pick up along the way, haha. (^^)b
お誕生日おめでとうございます！！！！
You are OUR precious!!!
＊＾０＾＊
Thank you for your explanation! ขอบคุณครับ
すごく勉強になりました！ ^_^
私はも11月の生まれですた :]
はい、すみません。＞＜
今、私は、時間でない。ちょっと無地かしい、ごめんなさい。
Thanks that I'm always welcome! I'm very thankful :-)
Your skill is low? Nice joke, who told you that?
Of course I wish you luck, even if your English is already on a very high level.
がんばってね！
... so it seems to us... >"would appear" is used in situations where the accuracy of a conjecture is still in question, e.g., "It would appear that our teacher isn't going to come to class today"---you are thinking that you can go home, but maybe you should wait a little longer.
In such cases, even intransitive verbs were (and are still) used even in passive constructions: >you are emphasizing the peculiarity (to English speakers) of "intransitive verbs", so even should be placed directly before that phrase
The latter verbs are reflexive forms of the former). >I think that is what you mean
I think there are both similar and different attitudes toward the passive voice in Japanese and English.
However, I sometimes get stuck on whether to use active or passive voice. >"stuck on" is more idiomatic. "Stuck with something" has a different meaning---e.g., "I don't like this X (thing that you bought), but the store won't let me return it, so I guess I'm stuck with it."
Another fascinating entry here. I would like to have seen a little more about what you called the "middle" voice (聞こえる)---I don't even know what that is called in Japanese.
Yukoさん、ありがとうございます。そうですよね。日本語は主語が曖昧な表現をよくするので、その延長で考えると英語などでも受動態を使いたくなるんですよ。あと "I am interested in" のような表現が頭に染み付いてて、受動態を使ったほうが英語っぽいのかとも思っていました。
英語で能動文に言い換えるなら。。。"you" "one" "they" のような generic pronouns を主語に使ったらいいのかしらね？ ^-^;
Thank you for your corrections! I thought "LAUGHABLY" would sound mean, but don'tt worry, she is one of my closest friends. ^-^
I'm afraid the technical terms I used in this article were too difficult for readers to understand, but those terms were really necessary.
In Japanese, there are a lot of passive expressions used in formal language, while we tend to avoid them in informal (colloquial) language. It is because the formal Japanese were strongly influenced by foreign languages. I think the informal Japanese retains the traditional features of the Japanese language. The absence of the subject of a sentence is one example, so we can express things without using much passive voice in every day language. This is easy for us to use, but it follows as a result that we must struggle with the use of passive voice in academic writings or foreign language, haha!
I would like to use active voice as much as possible to make my English sound natural. Please help me out with it!
わぁありがとう、Nanaさん！
私もこの曲、大好きです <3
しかも、しっかり午前零時過ぎにプレゼントしてくれましたね☆
でも私は熟睡していました、ごめんなさい！(-_-)zzZ
Thank you for introducing me in your entry!!! (^o^)
ไม่เป็นไรค่ะ
I'd like to say, ขอบคุณ มากค่ะ
You are welcome and thank you too!!!
ありがとうございます！
喜夢さんも私と同じ11月生まれなんですね ^_^
By the way, it's more correct to say, 私も11月生まれです。(= "I was born in November too.")
Why? You don't need to apologize.
I'm the one who should be apologizing.
I just wanted to say I thought my skill is still low.
無地かしい ← Is this a play on 難（むず）しい? LOL
Wish you good luck too!
Thank you for the corrections and explanations!
I know today is All-Saints' Day (or "All Hallows' Day"), too. I am lucky to being born on such a meaningful day!
About middle voice.
This is called 中間態（ちゅうかんたい）in Japanese. I learned that this voice was common in Ancient Greek and Sanskrit.
Some people say that English also has expressions similar to those using middle voice. For example, the word "sell" as in "these shoes sell well in the spring" is intransitive and means "to be sold."
There are many words being used in middle voice in Japanese: e.g. 見える, 聞こえる, 売れる, 解ける, etc. Unlike the English "sell," 売れる can be distinguished from 売る by the form.
I Hope this explanation makes sense.
でも先に日本語で書いて翻訳すると、英語がボロボロになる事がままあります。
自分のくせを知ったところから治っていくものでしょうから、あまり心配しなくても大丈夫でしょう！Happy Learning♪
あ、それそれ！私も以前は日本語直訳で英語の文章を組み立てていたので、「～したいと思います」を "I think to want to~" なんて表現していました！＾＾；
なるべく英語で考えるようにしてから、少しは良くなったみたいです☆
Whoops... yes :_:
I'm very tired lately :DD
Nah, your English skills are great :p
In Winter I will be in Japan again, but my Japanese skills are still bad, as you see^^
♪ Happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday dear Roomy-chan, happy birthday to you♪♪♪(^З^)v
Thank you for the great essay again, Roomy!! I couldn't help heating up myself while reading it. I think your efforts are surely producing big fruits here and there. More and more your writing skill is getting advanced!!
Oh, poor Brian... :(
Forgive me, but I didn't know you were tired.
I hope you'll relieve your tired body and feel refreshed.
Your Japanese is very good. Please enjoy your stay in Japan! :)
Hi Pinky
Thank you sooo much for singing me happy birthday!!!
I feel like I can hear your voice! :D
You are welcome. I'd be more than happy if my poor articles could be of some help to you. These are results of spending a lot of time to write better entries. My English skill is still very low. So wish me luck!!!
From someone you would be said "You're the best." some day!xD
Happy 21 to Roomy~♪;
Oh, you already changed your picture after your birthday, right?? ^_^
"The vase was stolen," gives us an objective account that the someone's vase was taken by someone, whomever that may happen to be.
"He/She stole the vase," without a proper account of how you know this fact, can sound too assertive.
Passivization is, as stated by your friend used when "we want to explicitly express the importance of the event over the subjects" but it can also serve a broader purpose in English: the express removal of an actor in the action being done (I.e. the removal of a subject). Rather, sometimes this can be used to change the viewpoint in which the speaker wishes to convey.
In fact, one of the primary purposes of using passive is that it allows speakers to remove the subject entirely and leave us only with the object from the original active sentence:
An active sentence:
"The man broke the vase."
Passive sentence:
"The vase was broken by the man."
Further manipulation to remove the original subject of the action:
"The vase was broken."
In this, we see that the original subject from the active sentence can be entirely removed when changed into the passive. This can be done for many reasons. The author might feel that the vase being broken is the most important part but it can also show you that the speaker could 1) feel that the man doing the breaking was not important, 2) feel that they didn't want to let you know it was a man doing the breaking, et cetera. This sort of transition between active to passive can largely depend on the feelings of the speaker on how they wish to convey the information. In fact, in this passivized sentence, we can't even tell if it was a human doing the breaking, if it was dropped by an animal, or if it fell down somehow.
Of course, if all of these details are known for certain, one should avoid using passive sentences. In fact, this sort of passivization, used purely to remove the subject, leaves the reader always wondering if anything is certain at all.
In my earlier articles on Lang-8 which I wrote several months ago in English, I tended to use passive voice a little too often.
She told me: "English is more of a direct language, so the passive voice isn't used as often unless we want to explicitly express the importance of the event over the subjects." She added that the active voice could add strength to one's (i.
e., generic "your") statements.
Rather, <the next sentence should follow here>
I'm excited about that news!
Even so, these give us the impression that English has the tendency to depend on passive constructions. <"passive constructions" sounds okay to me>
To make my writing clearer, I'll try to use active voice as much as possible in English sentences.
However, I sometimes get stuck on whether to use active or passive voice. <You don't need 'an' here>
In the articles I wrote in English several months ago on Lang-8, I tended to use the passive voice a little too often.
I didn't wake up to this fact until Kathryn, a Lang-8 friend of mine, pointed out this fact.
She advised me: "English is more of a direct language and so the passive voice isn't used as often, unless we want to explicitly express the importance of the event over the subjects." She added that the active voice could add strength to your statements.
Recently, I chanced to look in some English texts of my Japanese friend (not on Lang-8) and noticed that she used passive voice far too often!
This is because English is a foreign language for Japanese people, not because the passive voice is more common in the Japanese language.
Japanese is one of languages that tends to avoid passive constructions, so it would appear to us that English uses the passive voice more often than does Japanese.
The following examples show examples of English passive sentences where we usually use the active voice in Japanese:
Even so, these examples give us the impression that English has the tendency to depend on passive constructions.
Yeah, my birth date is easy to remember when I write it in Japanese: 11月1日. Also, my age includes the number 1! It will be impossible for me to reach number one on Lang-8, though. xD
สวัสดีค่ะ
I did so for a switch. If I change my mind, I'll put back my main picture. Thank you for your noticing! :)
Thank you for the detailed explanation of the use of passive voice. That helps me a lot. In return, I'll explain a little about the usages of passive voice in Japanese.
I think the usage of the passive voice in "formal" Japanese is fairly close to that in English:
彼女は国会議員に選ばれました。= She was elected to the Diet.
会議は11月10日に開かれます。= The conference will be held on November 10th.
この服は化学繊維で作られています。= These clothes are made of chemical fiber.
In contrast, "informal" Japanese has a tendency to avoid passive voice:
会議は11月10日にあるんだって。
この服は化学繊維だよ。
Of course, the informal language is always being influenced by the formal language, so the passive voice is sometimes (not too often) used in everyday Japanese.
In the traditional Japanese language, however, passive voice represents the speaker's mental standpoint rather than the logical passivity, thus even intransitive verbs can be used in passive constructions:
昨日、雨に降られちゃって、びしょぬれになったの。= Yesterday, I got caught in the rain and sopped to the skin.
The verb 降る = "to fall, come down (of rain, snow, etc.)" is intransitive, but can have a passive construction like this.
Thank you for your corrections!
> Rather, <the next sentence should follow here>
Oh my goodness! I'm sure I hit the wrong key! xD This should have been "Rather," of course.
Thank you for giving them native nods. :)
はじめまして！でも、足あとはよく拝見していましたよ☆
日本語の受身の使い方を上にちょっと説明したので参考にして下さいね。
Nice to meet you! (But I've often seen your footsteps.)
I explained a little about the usages of passive voice in Japanese above, so I hope you find it informative.
Thank you for the encouragement, chunicone-san! :)
Well, if I put it immediately after the sentence ending, you think it feels you troublesome a little? (Sorry, little questions!)
Throughout the early articles I had written in English several months ago on Lang-8, I tended to use passive voice a little too often.
I didn't wake up to the fact until Kathryn, a Lang-8 friend of mine, pointed out this fact. (Using "fact" twice like this is a little repetitive. You can change it to either: "I didn't wake up to this until..." or "...pointed this/it out.")
She told me: "English is more of a direct language, so the passive voice isn't used as often unless we want to explicitly express the importance of the event over the subjects." She added that the active voice could add strength to your (i. (I don't recommend using "one" instead of "your." It sounds unnatural, and "one" isn't used often. If you were writing professionally, reword the sentence to avoid the use of "your" or "one" and say, "...add strength to statements." There are lots of options when rewording, this is just one way to avoid the "your" and "one" conflict. When writing casually, use "your," because "one" is never used in casual conversation or writing.)
Recently, I chanced on some English texts of my Japanese friend (not on Lang-8) and noticed that she used passive voice humorously often! (I think by changing "laughable" to "humorously," you can maintain the same meaning without the undesirable tone. Saying "far too often" or "way too often" works, too, but "far too often" sounds less natural to me than "way too often." Also, "chance on [something]" is a fixed phrase, so using a verb after it doesn't work too well. It also may be more British English than American English, so American users will change it to "happen to look," which is more colloquial American English. Also, I caution against the use of caps. It tends to convey too much emphasis, likened to yelling. It's safer to not use caps, or would be better to use bold or italics if you're using a regular word processor.)
This is because English is a foreign language for Japanese people, but it's not that passive voice is more common in the Japanese language. (Usually when saying, "This. Not this," the way you're using it here, the sentences stand by themselves. So, it would be easier to understand exactly what you want to say if you said, "This is because English is a foreign language for Japanese people. Not that passive voice is more common in the Japanese language." The "Not that..." statement doesn't always follow right after the "This..." statement. [I hope that makes sense!])
Japanese is a language that tends to avoid passive constructions, so it would appear to us that English makes much use of passive voice as compared to Japanese. (I think if you were also discussing languages that do tend to use passive constructions, using "one of the languages that" would work, but since you're only discussing languages that don't, it sounds better to use "a language that.")
The following examples show passive English sentences where we usually use active voice in Japanese: (It's an "English sentence," but it's a "passive sentence," too. English is essential to what kind of a sentence it is, but you're talking about passive English, too. It would seem strange to be talking about passive construct in English and shorten it to English passive, right? It should be passive English, so that passive describes what kind of English it is, just like passive describes construct in "passive construct," or "passive form" if you prefer that term. So, I think using "passive English sentence" is a more logical word order. Does that make sense?)
I'm excited about that news!
Even so, these gives the impression that English has the tendency to depend on passive constructions. (Try to avoid the use of "us" and "we," as it tends to separate your readers [English speakers] from the group you come from [Japanese speakers]. Does that make sense?)
I noticed that some Japanese language learners tend to use actives even where passives are necessary: (It might be better to be consistent in the terms you use, as in "active voice" and "passive voice," or "active form" and "passive form," or "active verbs" and "passive verbs." Introducing new terms like "actives" and "passives" when talking about complex topics can be a little jarring, so consistency in words is important. ^^)
(This is correct if you are an official for the fireworks event.) (I think the word "fireworks" is always plural. Maybe this is because a single firework is never shot in the air, or maybe one firework doesn't have only one firework in it, but explodes several times. I'm not sure.)
In early Japanese, passive constructions were mainly used to express something "undesirable" such as 盗まれる ("stolen") and 殺される ("killed") being carried out.
In such cases, intransitive verbs were (and are still) used even in passive constructions: (Depending on where you want to place the emphasis will determine where "even" will be placed. I assumed that the emphasis was on the fact that passive constructions also use intransitive verbs. If that's where you meant to put the emphasis, there's no need to move "even.")
One of the so-called respectful forms of verbs that has the passive-like ending -(r)areru (e. (Whenever you use "so-called," "the" always comes before it, because you're talking about a specific "so-called" something or other. Otherwise, it wouldn't be "so-called." ^^)
You can think of the use of passive voice suitable for situations of victimization:
The tornado tore through the town.--Emphasis is simply on what the tornado did.
The town's people had their lives destroyed by the tornado.--Emphasis is on what the tornado did to the people. This also lends a tone of negativity. Passive voice is often used to describe a negative event.
I think this use is similar to the Japanese use of passive voice, too.
I have always felt that the Japanese way of speaking, i.e the words they use and sentence formation, was different in someway, both when speaking English and Japanese.
Although I often here Japanese say that "Japanese are bad at expressing themselves with words" I don't think this is true. I can't quite define it, but something makes Japanese speech different. Maybe it's the use of passive voice, or maybe it's that English typically has many words to say the same thing, and Japanese tends to have one word to say many things, but I feel that even if Japanese sentences are vague, and even if there is confusion at first, the meaning is cleared up eventually, and they say what they want to say.
Also, maybe it's just the culture (people being more humble, and listening more than seeking) but I feel more thought is give to what the Japanese person is saying.
I think my response doesn't have too much of a connection to the topic of your entry, but these are my feelings. I hope I at least wrote them clearly.^^
Do you also understand German?
レベッカさん、ありがとう～♪
Thank you sooo much for the corrections and detailed explanations (as always).
They all make sense to me. :)
Sometimes it's a bit confusing to me as to how to use generic pronouns in a natural way. I'm glad you showed me the good way to write professionally.
I intended to use "LAUGHABLY" as a translation of the Japanese 笑っちゃうくらい. This could sound a little mean anyway if she weren't my good friend or if I revealed her real name, though. I think "humorously" is a very good solution.
For pretty much every English language learner, it might often be difficult to know about the differences between British English and American English. How I wish there were "Common English" that could be used throughout the world.
I wonder if it's OK to use "gives" after "these" though "these" is plural?
Yes, I agree that passive voice is more frequently used to describe negative events in the same way as in English. Besides, passive voice often focuses on the speaker's mental attitude. So 愛されたい (= "I want to be loved"), for example, is very frequently used by women! (＾－＾；)
Long time no see! Thank you for taking time in your busy schedule to comment on my post.
As you say, I also think Japanese is different in many ways from English. You are right to the point that Japanese tends to have one word to say many things. The absence of personal pronouns is one example. As a result, a lot of alternative ways of expression developed in Japanese. The use of pronoun-like nouns such as 私, 僕, and 俺 as well as sentence-ending particles and verbs must be very unique among the languages of the world. I think it is why Haiku and Senryu were created only in Japan.
It must be noted, however, that Japanese and English have a lot in common. Previously, l thought English makes heavy use of passive voice compared to Japanese. It's actually quite recent that I realized it is not true. I've come to know there are various ways to replace passive voice with active voice in English. Now I feel that English is to some extent closer to colloquial Japanese.
Thank you for the feedback. Ich kann doch nur ein bißchen Deutsch verstehen.
Well I'll write a new journal now~^^
I think another way to soften your sentence "humorously often" would be to say "rather humorously often." "Rather" here lends some softness to it, but it does tend to sound a little British. If you wanted a more American way of saying the same thing, you could say, "kind of humorously often." It doesn't sound nearly as smooth to me, though. I think Americans aren't really known for soft expressions. ^^;
Another interesting observation I've made is that British English seems to use tag questions more often. "It's a lovely day, isn't it?" or "Well, that was a stupid idea, wasn't it?" would be more common to hear in British English than in American English. (As you can see, it can be used for both positive and negative statements.)
I agree that it is difficult for English learners when there are so many different kinds of English. That's why I'm making an effort to learn more about British English. I think it'll be helpful for English learners if I know the differences and can point them out. I want to make sure I can point out that certain things aren't necessarily incorrect, because often times they're not incorrect, but would sound more natural in British English. I also know British English is often taught in Asia, so I feel bad for English learners, because they must get so confused so often! When British people and Americans don't know both Englishes, I think it adds difficulty for people who are learning English.
I think "these" should always receive a plural verb. I won't say that's a rule set in stone, though, because there could be complicated sentences where "these" may not receive a plural verb, but then it probably would somehow not be the subject. As a general rule, I would say "these" should receive the verb "give." ^^
That's good to hear.
I hope you can improve your Japanese by writing new entries. :)
@♥レベッカ♡李北卡♥
If it's better to avoid generic pronouns in professional style, can I think that using passive voice instead is one way of solving a problem?
Thank you for letting me know the other expression "rather humorously." Actually, "rather" is a bit confusing for me (and probably most Japanese people). It seems to have different meanings which, if I used it carelessly, could end up conveying an unexpected meaning. To know how it does, you can look it up on the website I told you before. ^_- I didn't know that it could sound a little British.
I think it's very interesting that tag questions might be more common in British English. As you pointed out in a message to me before, Japanese people tend to frequently use tag questions in English and so do I. This might be due to the influence of Japanese particles such as ね and よね. Viewed in this light, Japanese English (LOL) is more like British English than American English. (*^m^*)
Yes, the problem is that American English and British English are sometimes different, and so it could happen that English learners get confused as to which is correct. The differences are found in vocabulary, spelling, pronunciation, punctuation, and even grammar! I know some of my friends often complain about these. I hope most English proofreaders know about these differences and apply their knowledge to their corrections.
Oh, and it's OK to put a plural verb after "these" as the case may be, isn't it? よね？ It was a little confusing, though. As a whole, I think it's better to use a plural verb after a plural (pro)noun. Hopefully, I'll use it correctly.
I try to study the differences between British and American English. I know some of the grammatical differences (there aren't many) and the spelling differences (there is a rule) and the different expressions that they use.
American English spells "color" and British English spells "colour."
American English accepts both "theater" and "theatre" while I think British English only accepts, "theatre" I could be wrong though.
This is not such a good thing, is it? It can be confusing, huh?
The biggest problem is slang, which can cause major confusion between British and Americans if they talk to each other. It can be quite amusing. ^^ It is because what one phrase being said can have a totally different meaning to the other English speaker.
Thank you for the comment!
I suppose Americans use less tag questions because they like to express everything more assertively than other people do. Recently I learned from a treatise that American women used to use more tag questions than men and present-day women. To some extent, the use of tag questions might be related to speaker's politeness.
I came round to thinking that which language to use--American or British English--is no big problem for the learners if they are consistent in their usage. They are bound to get their English corrected if they mix up two Englishes at the same time. What concerns me is whether it will hurt the feelings of British readers if I use American style in my journal.
I've heard that American women tend to be attracted by Englishmen. I don't know why, but it may be because those women are tired of American men and find the politeness of Englishmen appealing. Oh, this has nothing to do with what you were talking about. I'm terribly sorry if you felt bad!
I think "rather" could be most likened to "kind of" or "a little."
"It's rather cold, isn't it?" = "It's a little cold, don't you think?"
I've actually found myself being more prone to using tag questions after I started intensively studying Japanese. After watching British TV, I also have a tendency to throw in tag questions, even in my thoughts ! It's kind of weird. （´▽｀；
Americans also have a certain image of British English as being higher in the social ladder, so to speak. It's funny that you pointed out the politeness of the speaker in American English versus British English, because characteristics of common British English are more polite than those of American English, which is probably why Americans have this image of Britain and British English. That is also probably why I prefer British English to American English, because politer is always considered more feminine.
I do think you have a point in why American women may be attracted to Englishmen. Even just the politeness of British English is refreshing after being in America for fifteen years.
I think it's good when learning English to be aware of some of the differences between British and American English. You can choose to write in one form of English, but if someone of the other English happens to come and correct your entry into the other English, you'll find it more helpful if you know some of the differences. That way you'll know what's really incorrect and what is just a difference in spelling.
As for hurt feelings, I get the impression there are more Americans on Lang-8 than Brits. It would probably be more beneficial for you to use American English just because of that.
Oh. Well, it's not as simple as I'm making it sound to solve the pronoun problem in formal writing. (-_-)
Speaking of "rather," it seems like the word has so diverse meanings that I can't easily handle it. I tend to use "rather" to mean むしろ, but I often come across the word being used in other ways. For example, if I said, "I'm 'rather' bored with it" in an attempt to mean "私は 'むしろ' うんざりしてるの," it would end up meaning, "私は 'ちょっと' うんざりしてるの" as you have explained it, right?
Haha, you seem getting influenced by Japanese English! I'm sure you have what it takes to be a Japanese woman. On top of that, perhaps you'll have no trouble living in the UK. (^o^)b
I agree that people's politeness depends on the circumstances and education. Even a male person tends to be very polite if he has come from a good educational background. In addition, It's also important to know where he was born. In Japan, it's proverbial that Kyoto men are gentle and speaks in a kind of feminine way. (*^m^*)
To get back to British English, I really look forward to what you have found out about the women's language in the UK. That might be unlikely to make much of a difference from the men's language, though. It's because both men and women tend to use tag questions or something like that in the same way.
I'm very happy about my English getting corrected by many people. I always enjoy reading their corrections and learn a lot from them. Even when there were conflicts among their corrections, I'd try to understand how they could be that way. This might be my strength, too（笑）
I have actually never had a girlfriend because I was shy. I guess it's okay though, isn't it? I don't think any of them liked me anyway, because I was too nice for an American.
I kind of feel sorry for you. Why can't none of American women find your good points although they are different? I prefer shy and polite men to rude and insensitive guys.
If you lived in Japan, you'd have a different life. Every Japanese woman is different.
And I actually agree with Yoo-jin, that if we always use active voice, we may come across as too... "abrasive", you know. ;p
I guess it depends on the aim of the speaker. Of course in argumentative essays, we use active voice a lot but in my view, active voice is usually used by experts in the field. If I am just a student writing about some topic, I wouldn't be inclined to use active voice all the time because it may give people the impression that I THINK I know what is going on, which of course, is not the case. ;p
In normal conversations, I would use active voice but with regards to situations that I am not sure, I usually speak in passive voice.
For e.g., I would say, "I think somebody killed her", instead of "Somebody killed her". But of course, this could be because I am a Singaporean and the culture of my country or my race would no doubt affect the way I speak.
As for your English, I think it's 90% natural! You know, sometimes people stumble and not even native English speakers speak natural English 100% of the time. If I say Mandarin is my mother tongue, I would be ashamed because I do speak in 'unnatural' Mandarin all the time! :P
And lastly, how do one define 'natural English'? I think it varies from country to country, and culture to culture. What Americans deem to be natural, might not be natural to the British, or Australians. :)
The problem is how to write objectively while avoiding the over usage of passive voice.
Totally agree!!!
British English is just more refined, my personal opinion of course...
As for your question: how to write objectively?
I took a look at the stuff that I wrote in school, and realized that I use passive voice quite a lot. So I can't answer that question, sorry! But I think writing objectively is not just tone of voice (active or passive), but also the contents.
IMHO, one needs to discuss the topic from all possible viewpoints (passively), then slowly come to a conclusion (either passive or active, depending on your style actually) by either summarizing previous points, or, coming up with a new view/conclusion/comment.
It's been ages! Thank you for the comment, Nicole! ^_^
Although which to choose--active or passive voice--is a key ingredient in the recipe for good writing, there seem to be few people who are very concerned about it. Japanese people tend to think using passive voice looks objective and convincing. I was one of them, too.
I had no idea that always using active voice could across as too "abrasive." Rather, it's a little too difficult for me to use active voice all the time. There may be some tricks to replacing passive voice with active voice. I really want to know about them.
When I discuss with others, I tend to start my statements with "I think" or "it seems like" very often. It's about the same for me in English as well as in Japanese. It might be because I'm not too confident in my statements. :(
I don't use passive voice too often in everyday speech, but maybe I had tendency to frequently use it in writing.
I agree that the contents are very important in writing objectively. But what should I do as a person who lacks in substance and conviction, lol? To some extent, it would be inevitable to use passive voice here and there to give an objective look to my writings.
Speaking of "natural English," there wouldn't be no absolute standard for that. However, it's more convenient for me if there's such a standard. I wonder if the day will come when "Japanese English" or 'Jenglish" receives wide recognition and gets accepted as a variety of English?
>I had no idea that always using active voice could across as too "abrasive." Rather, it's a little too difficult for me to use active voice all the time. There may be some tricks to replacing passive voice with active voice. I really want to know about them.
Hmmm... I really don't know how to answer this question, as in, whether there are tricks to write a good and convincing essay/article. While I was bathing just now, I thought about this and came to the conclusion that the best way is to read other people's articles. Of course, finding good articles on the internet or through blogs is not exactly easy (since most are quite argumentative and express the speakers' personal views).
The ability to differentiate between good and bad essays is another thing too. If you don't mind, I can email you some of the old essays I wrote in class, but my essays are not very good... I think I am just a so-so writer, so if possible, try to look at an array of different essays of varying standards too. By looking at a bad essay and comparing it to a good essay, I think we can get a better idea of what exactly is "good" and what exactly is "not so good".
>When I discuss with others, I tend to start my statements with "I think" or "it seems like" very often. It's about the same for me in English as well as in Japanese. It might be because I'm not too confident in my statements. :(
It's the same for me too. :)
>I agree that the contents are very important in writing objectively. But what should I do as a person who lacks in substance and conviction, lol? To some extent, it would be inevitable to use passive voice here and there to give an objective look to my writings.
Ah you are right there. If a speaker lacks conviction, s/he would naturally write in passive voice. There was a time when all my work reports were 100% passive tone and my boss told me to change it simply because it had no persuasion power. LOL!
There lies the hidden line; if we write in 100% passive voice, we lack convincing power. If we write in 100% active voice, people may think we are too "loud". Of course, people have different views so I guess the nature of the topic matters too. If I am writing about politics (which I seldom venture into because I really can't be bothered about it), I would write in passive voice because I am no expert and if I say something wrong, I might get 'bashed up' badly!
But if you are writing about something that you are very familiar with (say, programming), or is very passionate about (say, cosmetics/skincare), please do use active voice. It lends a certain 'power' to your article/speech and has that slight nuance of "I KNOW what I am talking about, dude, so listen to me!" ;p
>Speaking of "natural English," there wouldn't be no absolute standard for that. However, it's more convenient for me if there's such a standard. I wonder if the day will come when "Japanese English" or 'Jenglish" receives wide recognition and gets accepted as a variety of English?
Haha! Then I must also pray that Singlish (Singaporean English) would get accepted too.
There is standard British English and standard American English (just check out the dictionaries). But there's no standard for 'natural English' I think. I am no linguist (disclaimer is also a way to be objective! hehe) but I think Jenglish is supremely funny! I took some photos in Japan and will write about it someday. :P
You make a good point about British English women's language. Since British men are considerably polite, maybe there is little or no different between speech that men use and speech that women use.
After mentioning that Kyoto men are said to be gentle and speak feminine, I kind of want to meet a boy from Kyoto. ^.^
I often meditate while bathing, too! Bath tubs are good for thinking or reading. :)
Reading good articles would be the best way for sure, but I'm not so sure about what are good articles and what are bad articles in the first place. So it may make more sense for me to learn the standards of good writing, haha.
Anyway, I believe you can write better essays than I, so please send me your essays. Probably I'll find out the key to writing good essays. It will be best if there are some articles about human psychology or male and female relationships in them.
Yes, when it comes down to the topics I'm very familiar with, I'm pretty sure I'll use active voice all the time! What if I come across as overconfident, though?
As for Jenglish, there are not only Japanese-English words such as "skin-ship" and "my boom" but also Japanese accents of English words as well as kind of strange expressions used by Japanese people. We have plenty to say on this subject. ;P
For me, むしろ is one of the words I think are difficult to put into English although we frequently use it in Japanese. The word is used to specify a choice or preference as in "rather than." I don't understand how "rather" has come to mean "somewhat, fairly." But in most cases, I come across the word which is used in this meaning.
Hmm... so, does it turn out that there's little difference between men's and women's language in British English? Be it that British men are as polite as British women, how about American men compared to American women? Like British people, do American men speak in the same way as American women?
There's an idiom that says, 東女に京男 (= "A Tokyo woman and a Kyoto man make a perfect couple"). This is because the opposing temperaments of Tokyo women and a Kyoto men are believed to make a good match. I'm not sure if a polite man and a polite woman can make a good match, haha!
>Reading good articles would be the best way for sure, but I'm not so sure about what are good articles and what are bad articles in the first place. So it may make more sense for me to learn the standards of good writing, haha.
Good writing... this is a danger zone that I better not wander into recklessly without any armour... ;p
Try Google. I have faith in their search engine, haha!
>Anyway, I believe you can write better essays than I, so please send me your essays. Probably I'll find out the key to writing good essays. It will be best if there are some articles about human psychology or male and female relationships in them.
Okay, I will send you my essays. :)
>Yes, when it comes down to the topics I'm very familiar with, I'm pretty sure I'll use active voice all the time! What if I come across as overconfident, though?
Hmmm.... tough question. I never gave much thought about this before since my Japanese is obviously not on a level that I need to consider this at all... haha :P
To Americans etc, I doubt you will come across as overconfident, but to the Japanese... hmm, I'm not sure.
>As for Jenglish, there are not only Japanese-English words such as "skin-ship" and "my boom" but also Japanese accents of English words as well as kind of strange expressions used by Japanese people. We have plenty to say on this subject. ;P
Haha! Please write on this topic next time.
I actually like "skin-ship" this word. Straight to the point, easy to remember and understand.
> Good writing... this is a danger zone that I better not wander into recklessly without any armour... ;p
Try Google. I have faith in their search engine, haha!
Well, I suppose you're right. I'm going to search out Web pages.
> Okay, I will send you my essays. :)
Thank you! I'm waiting for them. :)
> To Americans etc, I doubt you will come across as overconfident, but to the Japanese... hmm, I'm not sure.
Oh, I see -- hm-hm. :)
> Haha! Please write on this topic next time.
I don't want to tabulate Japanese-English words in an ordinary way in my entry. You can find that kind of listing everywhere on the internet. Rather, I'm wondering how to write a unique ("Roomyish") entry... ;)
その国の国民の性格とも繋がるんですね～！
韓国人はすごく直球で話す場合が多いですね。
そういうわけで、日本語が難しいです。ㅠ.ㅠ
へえ～、韓国の人は日本人よりストレートな表現を好むんですね。
自分では気づかないけれど、確かに日本の子同士でおしゃべりしていると、いったい何の話をしてるんだろうと思うことがときどきあります。＾＾；
言語も同じじゃないかと考えています。
私が日本語を勉強して、柔らかい性格になりたいと思います＾＾。
人は衣服を選ぶように言葉を選んでいるんだと思います。優しい言葉、堅苦しい言葉、女性的な言葉、男性的な言葉など、まさに衣服がかもし出す雰囲気と一緒ですね＾＾
In English, the Passive Voice can be used:
a. to emphasize a change of state in the book (in the example above):
The book has been written
or
The book was written (by John): you may add "by John" if you want to add extra information.
b. in cases where there is no active verb in English.
I am interested in languages (just because English lacks the verb "interesarse"(Spanish) or "sich interessieren"(German) )
I think that writers should avoid over-using the Passive voice in English, except for the two cases listed above.
I have read articles where every other sentence is in the passive voice and they are very difficult to read!
I agree that we should avoid overusing the passive voice.
There are different histories behind the passive voice between English and Japanese, so I wanted to make them clear.
ルミちゃんの文章は素敵！
残念ですが、ルミちゃんの文は私にとって難しいと思う、まだ明らかに分かるのができません。もっと頑張らなければなりません。何度も読めればきっと分かりになります。信じます:-P
私もルミちゃんみたい、いい文章を書けるために頑張ります。＾＾
ルミちゃん、ありがとう
わぁ、ありがとう！
私自身、こんな大げさなことを書いちゃって、次のエントリーが書きにくくなったみたい。自業自得だね（笑）
米米さんが私のことを忘れずに、またコメントを書いてくれたことが私にとって何よりのお土産です☆
私もまだまだ頑張らなければならないわ～
一緒に頑張ろうね。＾＾
私もルミちゃんのエントリーをすべて読める（理解できる？）ためにがんばります。
日本語はばらばらごめんなさい。
大丈夫、日本語はバッチリですよ☆
楽しみにしててね☆