Why did it make him angry?
Nov 29th 2009 19:43
diary
The text was my post for an international web forum about Chinese history of the Middle Ages. It was a reply for a Chinese who insisted that Qing wasn't a Chinese dynasty.
# As you may know, Qing was a Dynasty of Conquest,
# but I think they were commonly accepted as a Chinese dynasty.
After the post, he seemed angry. I can't figure out the reason. Please tell me if you understand it. And, of course, please correct my mistakes.
--
> Originally Posted by ****
> Had some Japanese supposed that if Toyotomi had conquered China
> through Korea and that would be another 'Chinese Dynasty'?
Roughly speaking, Japanese regard Toyotomi Hideyoshi in his old age as a kind of paranoid. I can't answer your question because it seems absolutely nonsense even to imagine that Japan could conquer China.
In contrast, China itself has a lot of good examples within its history because a lot of Chinese dynasties had their roots in non-Han-Chinese ethnic groups. We may say that there were just few dynasties which were established by Han-Chinese; Han; Song; and Ming. In this view, we can say that Qing was just another Chinese dynasty.
In addition, what the word "Han-Chinese" means is very differ from age to age because Han-Chinese themselves have done fusion after fusion throughout its history. So how can we define a dynasty whether it's a "purely Chinese" or not?
In conclusion, I can accept Qing as a non-Chinese dynasty if it bases on reliable studies. However, if it comes from simple nationalism, I have to say no; nationalism is a modern concept which can be hardly applied for the Middle Ages.
# As you may know, Qing was a Dynasty of Conquest,
# but I think they were commonly accepted as a Chinese dynasty.
After the post, he seemed angry. I can't figure out the reason. Please tell me if you understand it. And, of course, please correct my mistakes.
--
> Originally Posted by ****
> Had some Japanese supposed that if Toyotomi had conquered China
> through Korea and that would be another 'Chinese Dynasty'?
Roughly speaking, Japanese regard Toyotomi Hideyoshi in his old age as a kind of paranoid. I can't answer your question because it seems absolutely nonsense even to imagine that Japan could conquer China.
In contrast, China itself has a lot of good examples within its history because a lot of Chinese dynasties had their roots in non-Han-Chinese ethnic groups. We may say that there were just few dynasties which were established by Han-Chinese; Han; Song; and Ming. In this view, we can say that Qing was just another Chinese dynasty.
In addition, what the word "Han-Chinese" means is very differ from age to age because Han-Chinese themselves have done fusion after fusion throughout its history. So how can we define a dynasty whether it's a "purely Chinese" or not?
In conclusion, I can accept Qing as a non-Chinese dynasty if it bases on reliable studies. However, if it comes from simple nationalism, I have to say no; nationalism is a modern concept which can be hardly applied for the Middle Ages.
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他人の信じる道を消してしまうのは他人を怒ることだと思います。
# As you may know, the Qing was a Dynasty of Conquest,
I can't answer your question because it seems absolutely nonsensical even to imagine that Japan could conquer China.
We may say that there were just few dynasties which were established by Han-Chinese: Han, Song, and Ming.
In this view, we can say that the Qing was just another Chinese dynasty.
In addition, what the word "Han Chinese" means is very different from age to age because Han Chinese themselves have done experienced fusion after fusion throughout its history.
So how can we define a dynasty on the criteria of whether it's a "purely Chinese" or not?
In conclusion, I can accept that the Qing was a non-Chinese dynasty if this was based on reliable studies.
Generally speaking, the Qing is considered a Chinese dynasty. But I understand that many people don't feel this way, even if I would not agree with them. I do think the question of 'who/what is Chinese?' is a really complicated and important issue. But I would agree that 'only Han dynasties = Chinese" is an expression of modern nationalism or maybe even xenophobia.
Maybe the other poster has very strong nationalistic feelings about the topic, which I can understand, even if I would disagree on the issue of what to call the Qing dynasty.
I don't mean any disrespect to you or the poster, but maybe the poster also didn't like that a Japanese person was saying this. (Speaking honestly, this is what I gathered from the tone of his/her question about Toyotomi.) I know that discussing things can be hard when it comes to nationalistic issues, so I hope you can sort things out.
But regardless, your comment holds more water.
Sorry about the long comment.
Oh, but just to add, I find the idea of 'the Qing is not China' ironic, since the territory of the modern PRC is essentially the territory consolidated under Qing expansion.
Thank you!
Well, I often forget that there are a lot of people who has strong belief about something. I should respect their philosophy much more.
@Gab
Thank you!
Your detailed comment helps me quite much. I have to be calm about a nationalistic issue. Or I shouldn't interfere such an issue from the beginning :)