Logic of black and white
Dec 07th 2009 02:45
In yesterday's entry, I wrote "There isn't much discrimination in Japan compared with other countries. (except for gender discrimination)"
One person said in his comment that he disagreed with me and explained about one discrimination he has seen. The other person pointed out one discrimination issue in Japan.
I never said there was no discrimination in Japan. This swing of the conversation feels strange for me because it isn't justified as a conversation in Japanese. (I wonder if I use "possible" instead of "justified.")
Is it justified (possible) in English conversation?
This exchange is like,
A: I guess he doesn't have much money today.
B: I disagree with you. I saw a penny in his wallet.
Person A doesn't say that he doesn't have any money. Unless person B says a joke or sarcasm, this conversation isn't justified (possible) in Japanese. I mean it isn't conversation. Isn't it strange in English conversation?
It is often said there is only black and white in English conversation, while there are a lot of vague and gray parts in Japanese one. In fact, I often realize it in conversation with non-Japanese at work. Are there only two things, "there is discrimination" and "there isn't discrimination" in English logic? If someone says "there isn't much discrimination", is it sometimes interpreted as "there isn't discrimination" in English logic?
What I mention in the last entry was whether there is more or fewer discrimination than other countries, not whether there is discrimination or not in Japan. So in Japanese logic, if anyone disagreed with me, he should say something about there were more discrimination in Japan than other countries. Also pointing out one Japanese discrimination issue is the same as pointing out a penny in the wallet and those don't make sense in Japanese logic. Isn't it true of English?
I wonder if this kind of logic difference is the reason that there are often gaps in conversation between Japanese workers and non-Japanese workers at work.
One person said in his comment that he disagreed with me and explained about one discrimination he has seen. The other person pointed out one discrimination issue in Japan.
I never said there was no discrimination in Japan. This swing of the conversation feels strange for me because it isn't justified as a conversation in Japanese. (I wonder if I use "possible" instead of "justified.")
Is it justified (possible) in English conversation?
This exchange is like,
A: I guess he doesn't have much money today.
B: I disagree with you. I saw a penny in his wallet.
Person A doesn't say that he doesn't have any money. Unless person B says a joke or sarcasm, this conversation isn't justified (possible) in Japanese. I mean it isn't conversation. Isn't it strange in English conversation?
It is often said there is only black and white in English conversation, while there are a lot of vague and gray parts in Japanese one. In fact, I often realize it in conversation with non-Japanese at work. Are there only two things, "there is discrimination" and "there isn't discrimination" in English logic? If someone says "there isn't much discrimination", is it sometimes interpreted as "there isn't discrimination" in English logic?
What I mention in the last entry was whether there is more or fewer discrimination than other countries, not whether there is discrimination or not in Japan. So in Japanese logic, if anyone disagreed with me, he should say something about there were more discrimination in Japan than other countries. Also pointing out one Japanese discrimination issue is the same as pointing out a penny in the wallet and those don't make sense in Japanese logic. Isn't it true of English?
I wonder if this kind of logic difference is the reason that there are often gaps in conversation between Japanese workers and non-Japanese workers at work.
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Is it justified (possible) in English conversation? I think in this case you should use "possible."
I saw a penny in his wallet. This doesn't make sense in English either unless it is a joke/sarcasm.
It is often said there is only black and white in English conversation, while there are a lot of vague and gray parts in Japanese one. I think this comes from the fact that in Japanese you often omit the subject of the sentence. In English you don't do this nearly as much. For example, in English you would have to say, "私はAです。私はホットドッグをたべます。私は…”
If someone says "there isn't much discrimination", is it sometimes interpreted as "there isn't discrimination" in English logic? No, not at all. This sentence to me also means, "There is little discrimination."
So in Japanese logic, if anyone disagreed with me, he should say something about there were more discrimination in Japan than other countries. Same thing in English.
One person said in his comment that he disagreed with me and gave one example of discrimination that he has seen.
Another person pointed out another issue of discrimination in Japan.
This swing of the conversation feels strange for me because it isn't justified as a conversation in Japanese. more natural way would be to say "This type of conversation seems odd to me because we would never bother having it in Japanese."
(I wonder if I use "possible" instead of "justified.") Justified is fine for what you are using it for but most people that I know of would say "There is no reason..." or something like that.
Is it justified (possible) in English conversation? (Is there a reason to have this conversation in English?)
Person A didn't say that he didn't have any money. (Past tense should be used here)
Unless person B said a joke or is being sarcastic, this conversation isn't justified (possible) in Japanese.
I mean there just is no reason to talk about it.
Isn't it strange in English conversations?
It is often said there is only black and white in English conversation, while there are a lot of vague and gray areas in Japanese one.
In fact, I often notice this while talking with non-Japanese at work.
What I mentioned in the last entry was whether there is more or less discrimination in other countries, not whether there is discrimination or not in Japan.
So in Japanese logic, if anyone disagrees with me, he should say something about there being more discrimination in Japan than other countries. (You need to be careful of your tense changes mid-sentence)
And so pointing out one Japanese discrimination issue is the same as pointing out a penny in the wallet which doesn't make sense in Japanese logic.
As far as the communication gap between non-Japanese and Japanese people at your work. I would imagine that not only are there problems with actual word usage, but body language between cultures can also be different. Tone, word pacing, gestures, stance all make up the majority of communication between people with the actual word content making up a very small portion. So it may be that this leads to the alteration of the actual message being delivered.
From what I know there will always be discrimination between people of different types. In areas where there are a lot of different cultures and races intermixing there is bound to be a higher incidence of these issues. It may be that there is less in Japan because there isn't as much diversity there as there is in other countries. I'm not saying that I know this to be true, I'm just stating it as a possibility.
At any rate, overall I think you express yourself very well. Keep up the good work!
I think I understand where the communication problem comes from. In your sentence you use the word "much" to compare the discrimination between Japan and other countries. I think what you meant to say was "as much", like:
There isn't as much discrimination in Japan compared with other countries.
The difference is only one small word, but to the ears of a native it is a big difference. When you say "as much" the sentence simply means, "There is less discrimination in Japan than there is in other countries."
When you say: "There isn't much discrimination in Japan compared with other countries." It sounds as if you mean there isn't a significant amount of discrimination in Japan, compared to other countries which do have significant amounts. To many people any discrimination is enough to be significant, so they decided to confront you about your statement.
I think this is just a very small miscommunication on a topic that is sensitive to many people combined with a difference in culture. In English speaking countries it is common for people to be confrontational. The skill of avoiding arguments is very valuable, but can be difficult to learn. I hope you still have the desire to keep learning English. =)
When reading your entry it felt like you were saying that there was very little discrimination in Japan and felt compelled to challenge that. In general, I would say that many Americans, and perhaps generally people from the West, have strong opinions. When we see or hear an opinion that we disagree with, we often feel the need to challenge that opinion.
However, I think I misunderstood what you really meant (as Phizuol suggested) and jumped to conclusions a bit. Sorry about that. Anyway, I sometimes write about my opinions and if you ever find an opinion in my entries that you disagree with, please say so. I always like to challenge my viewpoints. I think that's the only way to see if one's opinions have some bias or are being influenced by their background or upbringing.
Have a nice day! :-)
If you aren't careful about what you say your intentions may be misinterpreted. You can't just express an opinion without backing it up. Otherwise, people will jump all over you.
Logic is the same in any language. Whether people will accept it or not is another issue altogether.
I'm very impressed!
Thank you for your comment!
I just finished correcting others' entries and I'm ran out of energy. haha... So I'll write reply comment later. Sorry.
This entry was really hard for me to write in English. So I'm very glad that you corrected it and gave your opinion. Thank you very much. See you soon.
In your previous journal, there's an error in the sentence which makes it ambiguous and thus, open to guesses.
"There isn't any discrimination so much in Japan compared with other countries"
The words "any" and "so much" can't both be used here.
If you leave out "so much", you have to leave the comparison as well.
"There isn't any discrimination in Japan"
This means, there is no discrimination (at all) in Japan.
If you leave out "any", we get the meaning which I understand you intended.
"There isn't as much discrimination in Japan as in other countries."
This means there's less discrimination in Japan than elsewhere, without stating anything about the "amount" of discrimination in Japan.
So there's no (at least this kind of) difference in logic in English, but a misunderstanding in communication.
Now, of course, even if the text was perfect, there's always some people who can't read and interpret as they wish (not to imply there were any present!). I guess they're a universal phenomenon. （＾ω＾）
PS. About the actual discrimination in Japan, I'm not qualified to guess. Discrimination can manifest in many ways. Finland is a pretty homogeneous country like Japan and there's little open racism, but there's plenty of discrimination towards the Somali, for example, because the general opinion of them is bad.
I should use "possible." I see.
Thank you for your explanation and comments for each sentence!
> Zak,
Yes, there isn't much diversity here in Japan. I also think that's why there is less discrimination in Japan than other countries. Thank you for your corrections and opinion!
> Josephas,
It was quite difficult for me to write this article. (^^;)
Thank you for your comment!
> Phizuol,
Oh--------! I should say "as much"!? Yes, some people corrected my sentence to "as much" in the previous entry. I'm surprised that there is such a big difference! To be honest, it's very difficult to acquire it... Thank you for your explanation!
> mixmasterJ,
I'm sorry. My sentence was wrong. It was different from what I wanted to say. English is... difficult. (^^;) By the way, there isn't much diversity in Japan and Japanese people tend to get rid of something different or rare. That's why things like what you mentioned happen. It's not discrimination against a specific race, but avoiding something rare. Of course it's one of discrimination though. Thank you for your comment!
> Shin,
It's hard to express my intention correctly in English. I need to practice a lot more.
Thank you for your advice!
> Dan,
It was really hard for me to write this entry. (^^;)
Thank you for your comment!
> simo,
Oh, I can't use "any" and "so much" together. There are many kind of discrimination and I wanted to express every discrimination is not so much. So I tried using "any." Then I failed. (^^;) Thank you for your comment!
I guessed that at the point where you said "except for gender discrimination", he might have misinterpreted the point you are trying to get across. This is because it does sound as though that "There is only one type of discrimination in Japan, which is gender discrimination".
Well, language is ambiguous (意味は曖昧だ。) after all.
Oh, I see. It's possible that it is interpreted such a way. Languages are really difficult and , yes, 曖昧です。
Thank you for your comment!
Black and White Thinking A very interesting topic! Actually this is a subcategory contained within 'False Dilemna' logical fallacy, in which only two choices are considered when in fact there may be many options. I don't believe it is necessarily the standard thought process of an English speaker, and I'm sure some Japanese are guilty of thinking this way as well. Nonetheless, people with strong opinions, in my view, often use this illogical way of thinking. I also believe that there is a tendency for these people's strong opinions to be overrepresented, especially in settings such as internet message boards, etc., where people's normal inhibitions are often all but ignored. <A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma</A>
In yesterday's entry, I wrote "There isn't much discrimination in Japan compared with other countries
(except for gender discrimination)".
The other person pointed out an example of discrimination by the Japanese.
For me, it bears a resemblance to the following exchange: or I think it's similar to this exchange:
Person A isn't saying that he doesn't have any money.
Unless person B is making a joke or being sarcastic, this conversation would not occur in Japanese.
That is to say it couldn't be a normal conversation.
(I think it's fine as it is!)
It is often said there is only 'black and white' in English conversation, whereas in Japanese there are many 'vague, gray areas'.
Are there only two options/choices, "there is discrimination" and "there isn't discrimination" in English logic?
What I mention in the last entry concerned whether there is more or less discrimination in Japan compared with other countries, not whether or not there is discrimination or not in Japan.
So by Japanese logic, if anyone disagreed with me, he should try to prove that there is more discrimination in Japan than other countries.
Also Pointing out one instance of discrimination by the Japanese is the same as pointing out the penny in the wallet which doesn't make sense according to Japanese logic.
Isn't it the same in English?
Thank you for your corrections and opinion!